This conversation is with Raymond Chang, co-author of Future Focused Church, and Raymond offers pastors and youth pastors so much hope for the future. Enjoy.
Paul Turner
Raymond, welcome to the show.
Raymond Chang
Thank you. It’s great to be with you, Paul. Man, I’m excited.
Paul Turner
I’ll just say first off that what we’re going to talk about today is super important. It’s super important to the body of Christ. As somebody who’s been in this thing for a little bit, I think the book is it spot on, man.
Let’s just pretend, Raymond, I know you’ve maybe never been in this situation, but you are in a room with a bunch of students, maybe they’re middle school students, maybe high school, maybe both, and the youth pastor calls you, you’re a volunteer, and he calls and says, hey, listen, I’m running late, be about 15 minutes late. What do you do now that you’re in this room with the students?
What is your go-to as how is you’re going to keep these students entertained, and or come and or keeping them from rioting.
Raymond Chang
Oh, you reminded me of the Roman Empire. So I’d probably turn them into gladiators, give them sharp objects and basically say the winner will take all. And that’s probably what I do.
Paul Turner
That is a refreshing answer.
Raymond Chang
Internally, I’d be melting down, trying to scramble. I’d probably say everyone sit down and then I’d lecture them for an hour. That’s probably what I would have done.
Raymond Chang
And I don’t, I don’t want to make this, make light of this, because I believe in the public reading of scripture, but I’d probably just read the Bible if I didn’t know what to say for like a straight hour.
Paul Turner
Okay, now give me the season answer now. Now you’re in a room. Now you’re in a room. Beyond the gladiator, which I love. Is there something else come to mind that you say, oh, we’d probably start this way if the youth leader is running late?
Raymond Chang
Yeah, I mean, I think the first thing I would do is kind of get people into the room, not just physically, but mentally and emotionally to slow down, to enter into the silent presence of God together, and then just kind of help them to just kind of catch up with the realities of everything that’s taking place.
So we live in such a busy world and even if you, whether you live in an urban area or a rural area, it feels like everything’s running at you a million miles an hour because at the very least you have social media that’s trying to capture your attention and take your attention to a thousand different things.
And so I’d probably start with slowing down, getting present. I’d probably lead with a prompt, asking them a question that requires them to use their brains, then I would have them have some conversations and then, of course, open the Bible and then find ways for the Bible to be applied. And so I do a little bit more now in terms of engagement, but back then, you know, what did I know? I just trusted God. And instead of throwing sharp objects, I throw the word of God at them. That’s right.
Paul Turner
And by the way, for the sake of the podcast, we’re not recommending that you go gladiator with your students.
Raymond Chang
Do not go gladiator. That is not a recommendation.
Paul Turner
We’re just spitballing here. It’s a joke.
Raymond Chang
It’s a joke. It’s a joke, everybody. We’re not being serious. We wait for the apocalypse for that.
Paul Turner
We’re going to talk about Future Focus Church right here, and it is leading through change, engaging the next generation, and building a more diverse tomorrow. Important book, Raymond, in my reading of it. But you tell us, what is a future-focused church?
Raymond Chang
Yeah, so we define the future-focused church as a group of Jesus followers who seek God’s direction together, especially in relationally discipling young people, modeling kingdom diversity, and tangibly loving our neighbors. And we wanted to offer this definition because churches are shrinking, they’re not growing, they’re aging, they’re not getting younger, and they’re declining and closing.
And so, you know, there’s a rise of those that are unaffiliated with any faith tradition, including the Christian faith tradition. We’re concerned about how leaders are dedicated yet drained, and we’re concerned about how people are not, especially young people are not seeing the church as a relevant space for their spiritual vitality. And so we just didn’t want churches to go the way of Blockbuster.
You know, at one point, Blockbuster video was everywhere. It was the go-to place for your entertainment needs. I still remember the, you know, the one day a month that my parents would take me to Blockbuster to pick out our family Now there’s only one blockbuster left in the country in Bend, Oregon.
And so we just don’t want the church to go in that direction. So we wrote this book. Yeah, it’d be hard to everybody fit in that one church anyway.
Paul Turner
I mean, it’s a sad thing, but you bring up so much and there are statistics at the beginning of the book and of course throughout the book as well. And all of those are concerning. All of those are why the book is necessary. We have to pay attention to the things that are going on around us. And in the book, you outline the process of change, right? There’s here, there’s there, there’s how, and there’s who. So can you go ahead and unpack the process for us?
Raymond Chang
Yeah. As we were exploring, you know, what was going on, we realized like 70%, according to the Harvard Business Review, that 70% of all change efforts fail. And we know that Jesus even experienced lots of resistance to change. But as we studied over a thousand churches, and especially as they prayerfully become more future-focused, churches that were diverse in size and theology, a lot like the churches that are probably listening in, we realized that there were four very important zones to this journey, which you just articulated. They’re not a quick fix, but they’re really a process.
Here is where we are now. Why are we here? It’s inclusive of your physical location, the people that are in your congregation, the culture of the church, your current sense of life and vitality, the resources that are available, the infrastructure, the programs, and more. There is where is God leading us from here, right? So this is a very simple framework. It’s where you picture your church in six months, six years, or even 60 years from now.
The who is who are the people in your congregation or ministry and the wider community that must help shape the effort, because change requires effort. In most churches, this encompasses your overall congregation, your leaders, as well as people who are not yet part of the church, but who you hope to engage.
And so who are the people in your community and out of your community that you want to help shape the effort? And then the how. You know, what is our next faithful step? What are the next faithful three steps? And how might we move into a more faithful future? And that’s how we constructed these four zones for your map of change.
Paul Turner
Yeah, and I want to also point out, too, one of the great quotes in the book is that people don’t fear change, they fear loss. And I think that’s such a powerful statement, because I think when youth pastors are thinking through this process for themselves, they’re like—and by the way, I think through the book that youth pastors can gain a lot of insight to their adult congregation.
I think this is a little peek into the adult world, which I think a lot of youth pastors need. They need to understand that they’re in a system, they’re in a structure, that they don’t exist outside of that like I used to think. I used to think I was just, I’m just running a youth program, man. That’s all I’m doing. I’m just running a youth program. It has really nothing to do with those old people over there.
It has nothing to do with them. That was my mindset, and I feel like there’s a lot, and you talk a lot about silos in the book and how we’re siloed off and those kind of things too.
But I think this book offers a little peek behind the curtain of, hey, here’s what adults are thinking. Here’s maybe what your senior pastors are thinking. We’re going to unpack that a little bit as well. But I think that’s such a critical thing is that youth pastors don’t understand, well, why can’t we just change? Well, it’s because people fear loss. Right? And that’s what you’re seeing in churches too, is because, look, we can’t afford to give certain things up.
Raymond Chang
That’s exactly right. I mean, I think one of the biggest barriers to change is the fear of loss. And, you know, a lot of times we don’t often know the value of what we might gain because we’re so focused on what we might lose. And it doesn’t mean that we have to minimize the loss, but sometimes those losses are worth it, and sometimes they’re not. And I think that’s where you invite the community to discern together.
Paul Turner
And that brings us to the next step here, where we talk about these checkpoints, right? If you’re going to go from here to there, it’s not, first of all, it’s not a straight line, okay? You can see by the book, they tell you already, it’s not a straight line, everybody. If you’re wondering, you can’t just go from here to there. So in knowing this then, what are the checkpoints? What are we looking for in overall change? What are those checkpoints along the way from here to there?
Raymond Chang
Yeah, so these are not comprehensive, but to your point, we do, based on scripture and research and kind of assessing the reality of the kind of the church context, that there are three checkpoints that churches should consider moving toward And they’re kind of exciting tipping points that we can really be aware of and leverage.
The first is to relationally discipling young people. As you focus on the Church, the faith formation of young people does not need to be the only priority or the top priority, but we really contend that it needs to be one of the top priorities, maybe one of the top three or even top five priorities, especially as we depart from one senior pastor, that everything rises when we focus on young people.
The second checkpoint is modeling kingdom diversity. God’s kingdom is inherently diverse. We see that in Revelation 7 and 9. In fact, this was one of the shocking hallmarks of the early church. Gospel broke through dividing lines to turn strangers and enemies into friends and family. And today, young people are the most ethnically diverse generation ever. And the U.S. Is more and more culturally diverse than at any other previous time. But most of our churches don’t currently reflect this diversity. And so what we see is that young people experience diversity and an embrace of difference and an integration and a negotiation of cultures and all these other settings, and they don’t necessarily see it in the church, but they certainly expect it in the church.
And then the third piece is that, you know, we are called to tangibly love our neighbors from diverse ages and cultures. We really want to know how the church—we hear how often and people wanna know how the church is responding to the deepest needs in the world, especially with particular attention to those who are marginalized and vulnerable. Because we believe churches are at their best when all generations are seeking reconciliation, righteousness, wholeness, and shalom.
Paul Turner
Right, and by the way, youth pastors, you may not be keeping up with this, but the world demographic, at least we can say in the United States, the diversity is changing. And that’s been said for decades and decades as far as how that’s going. And I think, too, to your point, Raymond, that it’s the fear of loss or the fear of homogeny or the fear of that we’re going to be so different that whatever it is we knew before is going to be lost and gone.
And that’s not necessarily a bad thing. I think some things need to be lost and gone. You know, I think it’s good that the church needs a bit of an upgrade. In various ways. But each of those steps you just mentioned, each one of those checkpoints talk about a fear of loss to some degree. Should you push into that? Should you move in that direction?
The book offers a process for that. It’s a very slow and methodical pace that you offer within the book about everything from just starting dialogue to then moving on and into transformation teams and all those kind of things. So when we talk about that and you talk about churches establishing transformation teams, and I have to say, I’ve been a part a part of some of those in some of the bigger churches I’ve been in. And I got to say, it’s not fun.
They’re not lenient. They don’t flex a whole lot in the sense of you’re on the team, but you’re kind of just there because you’re on staff to some degree. So what can a youth pastor do? And lots of churches do this. They say, all right, we’re going to change. We’re going to do something. We’re putting together a team and we’re going to do this. And it can be somewhat exciting but what would you recommend to youth pastors who go through this process, sometimes multiple times in their tenure at a church?
Raymond Chang
I mean, I think the first thing is the role of advocacy. No one probably knows the reality of young people in a church than the person working most closely with youth and working with those who are volunteering with youth. And to all those that are listening in, whether you’re in youth ministry or in, like, the senior role at a church or of another ministry, just know your job is not easy.
What you do week in and week out, as hard as it feels, you are certainly storing up your treasures in heaven. And so I just want to offer a word of encouragement. But if you’re not the one leading the transformation team, I think your best role is to advocate for the right voices to be on the transformation team, including some younger people. Let youth enter in and help shape the reality that they’re going to be impacted by.
I also think that you can serve as an advocate for young people in that community and then try to add others to the transformation team that at least have an awareness of what young people are experiencing. Because if you’re not the one that’s driving the formation of the transformation team, which is the who of that leads a change effort, then you at least need to help populate it with the right people and the right voices, or to help bring your own advocacy to it. Because you can listen to a podcast on your own, but you can’t bring change on your own.
So it’s great that you’re even listening to this, but your next step after this, if you don’t have a transformation team, is to first talk to your senior pastor, if you’re a youth pastor, or a youth leader, and say, hey, Can we spend some time listening to young people and seeing what their needs are, what their perceptions of the church at large are, what they need from our community, what they really hope for? And then say, hey, could we put together a team that will really help drive some of the changes forward? And then just start moving, because you find the right five to 12 people, so many good things can emerge as a result.
Paul Turner
Yeah, and you emphasize putting the who, the right kind of people, right? Not just everybody. And you’re absolutely correct. Listen, youth pastors watching, listening, you’re the expert in the room to some degree. You’re communicating as to what the needs are of the kids. Sadly, there’s a lot of senior pastors who don’t know the youth in their own church. They’re just glad to see some youthful faces around.
And so youth pastors, start with small steps. It’s just, can we have a discussion? Can we just bring the groups together to kind of open up and talk about each other’s needs and talk about the needs of the young people in your church? And so what would you then do? There are several things you talk about in there.
One of them, I love the chapter on listening. And since we’re talking about listening, what are some things that youth pastors can keep their ears open for before there’s even a transformation team or even before there’s any movement in that regard? What can a youth pastor do? What are youth pastors listening for in their own congregation that would inform them of either a change or suggestions, almost like eavesdropping, on everything, where you’re listening, going, oh, that’s where that’s going, we could do this. But what are some things you recommend as far as, because you talk about that leadership, that listening is such a valuable trait of leadership.
Raymond Chang
Yeah, I mean, one of the things that we encourage people to do is begin with listening, because leadership needs to start with listening. And then what you’re listening for are a variety of things, but two things that you should should be trying to pay attention to is listening for what’s going to be lost and listening for the hope that is in whatever people are sharing. Because even as you think about what people are sharing, you’ll oftentimes hear the losses that are embedded in the potential of change.
And so there’s a lot of things that, as we’ve done our studies and as we’ve talked to different is, you know, we heard that, you know, sometimes most people just resist because no one actually heard what they were clearly saying over and over and over again. And we just encourage you to do that.
Paul Turner
And I think that youth pastors, and I can include myself, especially, you know, my younger version self, I’m better at it now, I think, but where we want to do a lot of talking because we feel like we have to inform, we feel like we have to like, “you don’t understand” is such a cliche of generational ministry. You don’t understand, right?
The older generation says, you don’t understand. The younger generation, you don’t understand. And it’s clearly present, has been present in our churches for quite some time. So listing surely is a part of the process and is probably one of the main components of it, because if we’re not listing, like you said, we’re really at a standstill. You’re not going to debate your way to change. You can only listen your way to change.
Raymond Chang
That’s right. Listening is the thing that’s going to lower the resistance and build empathy and trust. Instead of trying to get people to understand you, there’s a famous book called The Seven Habits of Highly Effective People. People want to be understood before they seek to understand, so seek first to understand before you seek to be understood. We also know that things only move at the speed of trust.
Listening also helps people feel like they’re co-creators. It reveals people’s mental models that they’re operating with. So much emerges from listening, and so if you get nothing else, know that there is power in asking an open-ended, genuinely curious question, and then just sitting in silence until they respond in fullness.
Paul Turner
In the book, you offer a bunch of questions. I mean, at the end of every chapter, you say, hey, here’s a process, here’s some of these conversation starters, here’s some of these ways that you can lean into listening without having to worry about explaining everything or those type of things. You’re setting the room, you’re setting the tone for these types of conversations, and I think they’re fantastic.
When we get to the part here where… I like to talk about churches that are stuck, because I know there’s some churches and youth pastors who are listening that are in churches that are kind of stuck. They’re in that place where it’s just day after day, it’s week after week, it’s the same old, same old, it’s the same kind of problems, it’s the same conversations about growth, the same talk about tactics versus strategy, all these various things. What advice would you give to youth pastors right now who feel like they’re in a church that is stuck?
Raymond Chang
Oh, I mean, the reasons we’re stuck can vary so much from church to church. And so it’s hard, but I think even in the things that we’ve talked about so far, where we take more time to listen and we empathize with the pain and the problems that people are facing, where we talk to and bring different generations together to say, hey, what are you seeing? Are you seeing the same thing? What is the church to you? What’s the church to you?
And then having them even articulate those things together, to activating the transformation team, saying, hey, let’s try to experiment on the edges. That’s one of the things that we encourage people to do, is start with something small. You don’t need to change the entire church from the center, but you can start from the edges.
So it might not be you are uprooting and upending everything about the main service on a Sunday. But, you know, a midweek event, something in a smaller group setting, something in the youth group itself, if you have the authority over that, those might be good places to experiment with the things that you want to see happen.
Paul Turner
And I love that chapter as well, because when you talk about everything doesn’t have to be wholesale change. Everything doesn’t have to happen all at once. The stakes don’t have to be so ridiculously high that if you do this and it all collapses, right? I always encourage youth pastors, hey, listen, if you’re going to try something, even if it’s a program change, use the word experimental because it’s not permanent. It’s, hey, we’re giving this a try, we’re trying something new.
And, you know, when I’ve had teens and adults have intentional conversations, during a meal, and saying, hey, by the way, here’s some questions, Some of mine are just like, “What kind of music did you grow up on?”, etc. I think sometimes young people just see older people as just shriveled up old people, like they didn’t have lives before the moment they saw them, right? And so I feel that having those moments, like you explain in the book too, of just these very simple conversations, these very simple meetings that they can have. And you offer a lot of great stories in the book.
Can you give me and give the youth pastors that are watching and listening some examples of churches that have taken some of these steps, even small steps. You can give me the small step ones, and then you can give me the bigger step ones, because I know there’s a story here about Roblox that I think is fascinating. But give me kind of the broad picture here, give me the here to there of some of these churches you’ve experienced.
Raymond Chang
Yeah, I mean, one, you’ve got to buy the book in order to get these stories. Just kidding. There are so many great stories. There are just so many great stories, because we studied a thousand churches
We went really in deep with about 40 or 50 of them, and we mined for so much goodness and gold. For example, a senior pastor of a small church in the Pacific Northwest started having young adults over to his house and then asked him, what would you like to see God do through you. And it was not a huge church, but because we believe that people tend to support what they create, this growing crop of young adults presented essentially a health care clinic to the church board, and the young adults then essentially took ownership by involving the church board and helping shape the direction of the clinic.
And then within a few months, they identified a partner organization, secured a public school location, raised over $20,000, and recruited over 150 volunteers And the day of the free clinic, the church offered 350 dental, vision, medical, and physical therapy services. And so it was really the young adults, the church board, and a whole lot of other church members in between who felt ownership over the idea, simply because the pastor asked a group of young adults, what would you like to see God do through you? And then just said, hey, why don’t you bring the right people within the community together to make it happen?
You know, you talk about another church called Wollongong. It’s a multi-ethnic and largely immigrant church that’s ecstatic that 40 of their 100 or so members are children and teenagers. But they’re not just 40 who are half-hearted attendees. They’re active contributors who help lead prayer sessions. They participate in worship service, guide multimedia efforts, and give input on board meetings. But five years before this, it was a totally different story. Five years before, instead of 40, there were only five children and teenagers involved. And what we know is that there are a lot of churches that don’t have a lot of young people because they’re aging up.
But what we saw was that this church, the difference that it made was that they had leaders who listened. They listened to God through prayer, then they listened to the youngest people within their outside of the community, what the adults felt about young people. And while the adults and decision makers in the church certainly valued young people, some weren’t sure that teenagers and some 20-somethings could be trusted with real positions of leadership or real influence on important decisions. And so the transformation team that they created heard this, and heard this, we don’t know how much young people can lead message loudly and clearly.
And so they helped the church board to listen to and better understand its young people, especially by inviting the board to experience young people’s leadership and action. And over time and through intentionality, the board’s mindset changed. They started trusting in the leadership of younger people, and then they became more and more open to the leadership and influence of young people, to the point where the youth ministry became youth ministering. And then, of course, they grew from five to for over 40. There’s a lot of great stories.
Paul Turner
Can you talk about the Roblox story though? I just found that to be just an unbelievable, they started a Roblox community basically, pre-pandemic, and then they had like thousands of people joining in there because they wanted to create a space, is that right? For people just to and be able to share Jesus? Essentially, people saw that young people were hanging out and congregating online. And so they basically created a church in the digital world.
Raymond Chang
And we’re seeing more and more of that. And they’re having actual worship services. They’re having times of fellowship. People are confessing their sins to one another. They’re sharing in ways that we would oftentimes see people sharing in deep, small group communities, mostly because the people are already there and they basically took the church to that space where they were already spending hours and hours on end. Instead of just talking about what they’re going to build or what shape they’re going to create or how they’re going to fortress their little base, they were having life conversations of deep meaning.
Paul Turner
Listen, I think the question is powerful, and there are a lot of powerful questions in here. I mean, there’s these little nuggets that you’ve said that, you know, trusting young people, right, to say, look, they can do more. They can do more than what you think they can do. They’re not just some auxiliary ministry out there. They’re not just, you know, they’re not just there to pad the numbers every week.
They can actually function and do things. But the question is, what would you like God to do through you? I think we ask a lot of the questions as youth pastors, well, what do you want God to do in you? We talk about the in you part, but the through you part is a powerful way for students to step up. Some of the best ideas, some of the best ideas come from students.
Raymond Chang
I always believe that. Yes. I totally agree.
Paul Turner
Yes, because when I like just past week, I said, look, guys, where do we go from here as far as the teaching go? And I said, look, just write down. My question was just what’s next, right? And you write down whatever you feel like the Lord’s put on your heart to say what’s next. So now I have this collection of just ideas and thoughts.
And some of it’s, you know, about practices, spiritual practice. Some of it’s about going through a book of the Bible. If it’s about dealing with emotional things. And so really, now that we come back, I’ll say, all right, guys, here’s what you guys came up with, where are we gonna go? Now we say, what’s next? What do you guys wanna do with everything you guys just talked about? So I think asking the question, what do you want God to do through you, is probably maybe the most powerful book in the question that you can ask your students.
Raymond Chang
Paul, I wish we knew that story, because we would have probably included that story in the book. Well, you’re asking them the question, and then you basically are presenting it back to them because, you know, again, we believe that people support what they create, and you’re allowing them to do that.
You know, there’s a friend of mine who leads a church called Tapestry in Los Angeles, and it’s a vibrant Asian American church. And one of the things that’s most encouraging about it is how young people, three times a week, are going to spend extended times of prayer. Like, you know, we just don’t often see people carving out space and time to go and pray. And of course we know that prayer sustains the church. And what I love about it is that these are college kids that are basically taking time out of their college rhythms to go to church and then just simply spend time in the presence of God with others, being led in worship, leading worship.
You just see the strong sense of ownership by the young people who are driving it forward. The senior pastor, who’s a friend, all he had to do is say, we’re moving in this direction, we trust you to help lead and guide this. And it seriously is one of the most beautiful kind of spaces in all of Los Angeles. Well, it’s super cool.
Paul Turner
And I think the stories, even just a few ones we’ve shared here today, I hope that those that are watching those that are listening are feeling hopeful. Because I think in the season in which the church is in, boy, it needs some hopefulness. It needs some, you know, it needs a boost in that direction where we can’t just put our heads down and just hope that, you know, they say that hope is not a strategy per se, right?
It’s like, listen, you gotta do something. If you want things to change, it starts with listening. But that’s an action too. Action is not, you know, listening It’s not passive. It’s something you actually have to put forward and do that. What are some things that I have not mentioned, Raymond, that are in the book that you hope that when youth pastors read it, when youth pastors and pastors who are listening to this, what do you hope they walk away with? What do you hope that they read when they close the book and they go, okay, what’s next?
Raymond Chang
Yeah, I think you said the word hope like a million times in three minutes. That’s what we hope that they walk away with. We hope people walk away with hope.
You know, like right now, there are a lot of churches that don’t feel like they’re kind of up to par because they’re shrinking and decaying. Declining, and they don’t know if they’re going to be able to get out of the rut that they’re in. And there are churches that we’re down to—and of course, a hundred is not a small amount of people for a church—but there was a church in Indiana that shrunk to a hundred people, which was a far larger church than before, mostly senior adults, and they wondered if it should close down. But they decided that it wasn’t too late to be future-focused. They followed the principles that we talk about in the book.
They focused on young people and loving their neighbors, especially those who were unhoused in their communities. They spent time listening and listening deeply, and then cast a vision and then mobilized multiple teams to make change and really become a different church that was still the same church. And now it’s a church of 1,500 people, 70% of whom are under 30. And so there’s no guarantee that the pace of change or results are always going to happen just because you do the hard work, but we think that the things that we offer in the book will increase the chances of transformation. A hundred percent.
Paul Turner
And by the way, those that are watching and listening, before you think too, and this is said of any book and any of those things, you can only read a book and do so much, right? It takes prayer. It takes listening to the Holy Spirit. It takes. Everything is contextual. Everything is where you’re at.
But the deal is this, that God cares about every church that is currently in motion right now. It’s not like God’s forgotten about us. No, no. Sometimes God just sort of waits until we’re, you know, ready to move, ready to do some things that, you know, that need to be done. And I think that’s so important, is that, listen, the book does in fact lay out steps and all those things, but it also It gives you that scriptural foundation. It also encourages prayer. It’s not static in that dynamic. It’s not just a here to there. It’s the journey. It’s the process. It’s what God does in you. It’s what’s God doing through you. It’s in the midst of all of those things.
And youth pastors, like I said, if you don’t do anything else, buy the book and give it to your pastor. I mean, you should read it. Yes. Buy one copy for you. Buy one copy for your pastor. And say, look, maybe this is something we should read through together. Before we do anything, let’s focus on this chapter. Let’s work on this thing together. What a great invitation to your pastor to say, let’s try something. Let’s do something experimental. Let’s do something we’ve never tried before, right? But we’ll end this by giving you the last word on this. Talk to youth pastors, like I said, who are listening. What kind of encouragement do you want to give them? A lot of them, like I said, they feel stuck. They feel a little bit down. They feel like nobody’s listening to them. They’re in the second chair, third chair, fifth chair. They’re in the basement. They’re like office space where poor guy’s down there with his stapler and they’ve moved his desk down into the church basement and they no longer know that he’s there. But those youth pastors who kind of feel that way, what do you want to say to them?
Raymond Chang
That’s so real, Paul. I mean, I know that there’s so many who are overworked and under-resourced and a lot of people that are working with zero dollar budgets and pulling money that they don’t have out of their pockets to keep the mechanism going. I know how often it seems like, you know, the task of listening to the same problem over and over and over again and not feeling like there’s resolve or feel like this kid just doesn’t seem like they’re someone that you can get through.
And yet they keep showing up and you keep showing up for them. And how you feel like you are carrying the burden of the entire young people and the future of the church on your own shoulders, because there are no volunteers who are stepping up to serve with you. Have been scouring the country and seeing so many heroes who are literally doing the same thing as you. And my encouragement to you is to know that your work is not in vain, that it will have lasting fruit, and that you don’t have to go it alone.
My encouragement to you is to reach out to the other youth pastors in your and just say, hey, can we just talk to share our shared struggles and share our best practices? Talk about what’s working and what’s not working. Can we just talk to just process some of the things that’s going on within your personal and professional life? And then to seek wisdom from people that might have had a longer time in that journey with you. To know that when you do that, Most people are eager to receive you and to connect with you and have desperately been hoping that someone will reach out to them too. But even if you don’t, know that none of your labor is in vain. None of your labor is in vain.
Paul Turner
Great word, Raymond. That’s a great word. Once again, youth pastors, you’re not alone. You’re not alone. Reach out, hang with some people, even if it’s just one. Join a network, whatever it is, even if it’s just online. In a Discord, wherever you’re at, go do that. And just know, like Raymond said, listen, there’s hope for you. There’s hope for your church. There’s hope in Christ. And you know what? It’s about the journey, everybody. You’re gonna make it. That’s what we’re trying to say. You’re gonna make it.
You’re loved by God, and you’re gonna make it, okay? If that is your concern, you’re gonna make it, okay? I wanna encourage you. Thank you, Raymond. Thank you so much for coming on, talking about Future Focus Church. It’s a really, really good read. It’s really planned out well. Lots of great nuggets, lots of great quotes, lots of great examples. It’s kind of the book the church kind of needs right now. Thank you so much. It’s great to be together, Paul.
Raymond Chang
And again, don’t go gladiator on people, just in case some people are wondering, oh, is that serious? No, we were not being serious. We were just joking. Do not throw people into the Coliseum. Maybe, maybe.
Paul Turner
Thanks, Raymond.
If you’re looking for experimental discipleship methods, I have written a book called The Disciple Project Outreach Manual which challenges you to take 3 months and stop having meetings and start a movement. This comes as a part of my Discipleship Bundle.
If you’re looking for something to start with before jumping into the deep end, take a look at a method I started, called D-Zones, that allows students to disciple each other.